Lots of color noise. What am I doing wrong?

[markcasazza]

I am continuing to test drive StarTools and there are parts I really love, but I seem to get an lot of color noise that even your great noise reduction routine cannot fully mitigate. Since I cannot save work I'll provide some screen shots. Please find images posted at http://casazza.net/ST

1. My first attempt of this image after noise reduction. I spent about 90 minutes getting to this point trying to do a good job. I failed.
2. A second much quicker attempt of the same image with AutoDev (with ROI), Wipe, AutoDev (with ROI), Color. I did better the first time, but this shows the extent of the noise I'm finding.
3. The same image digitally developed and color balanced in Nebulosity (My normal workflow now goes to PS CS6 with a LLRBG workflow to pull out faint nebulosity). This file was from PSCS6 with no further adjustments.
4. The digitally developed image just after opening in ST. This was the 16-bit floating point FIT from Nebulosity. It looks like you render the the file to the display pallet very different then PS CS6
5. The above image treated in ST. I love the noise reduction and I see that the tools are much less powerful with a previously stretched image, but it did solve my color noise problem. This could be a great intermediary step on the way to PSCS6 to kill the noise early.

Any advise is appreciated. I got enought Christmas money to buy ST, now I just need to see that it can do a better job than what I do today.

I'm willing to share my FIT files, but not publicly.

Thanks,

Mark

[admin]

Hi Mark,

(apologies for the tardy replies - I'm battling a wrist injury at the moment... )

Happy to have a look at the FIT file If you can share it with me.
ST should definitely be able to help with noise. In all cases, you should be using 1.3.5 as its noise reduction has been improved even further (use the read noise compensation parameter to smoothen the background as well).

Cheers,

Ivo

I am continuing to test drive StarTools and there are parts I really love, but I seem to get an lot of color noise that even your great noise reduction routine cannot fully mitigate. Since I cannot save work I'll provide some screen shots. Please find images posted at http://casazza.net/ST

1. My first attempt of this image after noise reduction. I spent about 90 minutes getting to this point trying to do a good job. I failed.
2. A second much quicker attempt of the same image with AutoDev (with ROI), Wipe, AutoDev (with ROI), Color. I did better the first time, but this shows the extent of the noise I'm finding.
3. The same image digitally developed and color balanced in Nebulosity (My normal workflow now goes to PS CS6 with a LLRBG workflow to pull out faint nebulosity). This file was from PSCS6 with no further adjustments.
4. The digitally developed image just after opening in ST. This was the 16-bit floating point FIT from Nebulosity. It looks like you render the the file to the display pallet very different then PS CS6
5. The above image treated in ST. I love the noise reduction and I see that the tools are much less powerful with a previously stretched image, but it did solve my color noise problem. This could be a great intermediary step on the way to PSCS6 to kill the noise early.

Any advise is appreciated. I got enought Christmas money to buy ST, now I just need to see that it can do a better job than what I do today.

I'm willing to share my FIT files, but not publicly.

Thanks,

Mark

[markcasazza]

Ivo,

No rush. Tend to that wrist. I'm running 1.3.3 so I will upgrade and try again. Can I have your email address so I can get you my FITs file? I think it would be very interesting to see what the expert can do with my file. I suspect my problem is with the digital development phase.

I spent today processing it my traditional way so I know what the data is capable of producing. I should be posting the result to AstroBin tonight or Tuesday. I have to say your app was doing a better job of retaining the bright nebula where I had to work to keep it the way I like it.

Mark

[admin]

Mark,

I had a look at the FITS file, and came up with this;

NGC7023-320sec-Stacked-crop.jpg (321.96 KiB) Viewed 9191 times

Log as follows (tweak to taste obviously);

--- Auto Develop
Default.
--- Wipe
Parameter [Dark Anomaly Filter] set to [5 pixels]
--- Bin
Parameter [Scale] set to [(scale/noise reduction 50.00%)/(400.00%)/(+2.00 bits)]
--- HDR
Equalize preset.
Parameter [Dark/Bright Response] set to [6.36]
Parameter [Detail Size Range] set to [243 pixels]
--- HDR
Reveal preset.
--- Wavelet Sharpen
Parameter [Amount] set to [225 %]
--- Deconvolution
Parameter [Radius] set to [2.6 pixels]
--- Color
Parameter [Cap Green] set to [To Yellow]
Parameter [Bias Slider Mode] set to [Sliders Reduce Color Bias]
Parameter [Saturation Amount] set to [268 %]
Parameter [Blue Bias Reduce] set to [1.58]
Parameter [Green Bias Reduce] set to [1.22]
Parameter [Red Bias Reduce] set to [2.21]
--- Life
Isolate preset
Parameter [Strength] set to [50 %]
--- Wavelet De-Noise
Parameter [Color Detail Loss] set to [20 %]
Parameter [Brightness Detail Loss] set to [19 %]
Parameter [Read Noise Compensation] set to [5.67 %]
Parameter [Smoothness] set to [78 %]

Does the noise reduction perform to your satisfaction here?

[markcasazza]

Ivo,

That is very impressive. I downloaded the beta version you suggested, I will run through that workflow and get a feel for it this evening. If I could get into that range I'm sure I can work the image to my taste. I would want to pull out the faint dust more and dial back the color saturation, but that is a matter of taste. I have to say your level of customer engagement alone is enough to make me want to buy your product. Keep up the great work.

Mark

[admin]

Ivo,

That is very impressive. I downloaded the beta version you suggested, I will run through that workflow and get a feel for it this evening. If I could get into that range I'm sure I can work the image to my taste. I would want to pull out the faint dust more and dial back the color saturation, but that is a matter of taste. I have to say your level of customer engagement alone is enough to make me want to buy your product. Keep up the great work.

Mark

No problem Mark. Happy to help! (even if you end up going with other software).
StarTools by default uses the full dynamic range it has at its disposal, but if you'd like to reintroduce a degree of background level, use the Skyglow parameter in the Develop module after you've processed the image.

Cheers,

[markcasazza]

Ivo,

I played with the demo quite a bit with this image and while I can replicate what you did I can't change it in the direction I want. I think I have a few struggles.

1. I do not know what I should be looking for as a result of any particular option. For example I tried manual dig dev and I under did it, but I did not realize that for many steps. A guide that helps a user understand what each operation should result in would be very very helpful to the novice user. I think this more important in this application because the workflow is not perfectly linear with your tracking feature. If the Youtube videos were narrated with detailed explanations of why you are doing what you are doing might do the trick too.

2. I can't see the difference between adjustment to the sliders. I can only flip back to before the entire operation, but this makes it very hard to learn what each control does especially when some operations take a minute or more.

I'm going to stack my next data set and try the app on that file. I'm all but convinced this is a must have app, i just feel like I'm trying to fly a 777 with no clue what each control does.

Thanks for all the help so far.

Mark

[Cheman]

Mark
from my own experience, and from what I gather from others, most of us have felt the same. Keep at it and it will come together. By no means do I know how and what everything does, but I read thru all the posts on this forum, and looked at all the vids. My suggestion, start with Ivos basic workflow and play with the sliders. I agree that some narration on the vids would be helpful but only for those who speak english. I like the few step by step written workflows that Ivo has posted the best, as I find them easiest to follow and refer back to. This is AWESOME software.
Che

[admin]

Ivo,
1. I do not know what I should be looking for as a result of any particular option. For example I tried manual dig dev and I under did it, but I did not realize that for many steps. A guide that helps a user understand what each operation should result in would be very very helpful to the novice user. I think this more important in this application because the workflow is not perfectly linear with your tracking feature.

I understand your frustrations Mark - as much as I have tried my best, the fact of the matter is that any new software will come with a learning curve.

If the Youtube videos were narrated with detailed explanations of why you are doing what you are doing might do the trick too.

The videos come with annotations (note - these don't show on mobile devices/iPads etc.!) which go into detail about what exactly is going on. Annotations instead of narration was chosen so that the video can be paused at any moment, still showing the annotation. Additionally YouTube's annotations allow for visual pointers to specific buttons/sliders/features etc.

In addition, have a look at the in-application help as well. There is a description per-parameter, as well as per-module.

2. I can't see the difference between adjustment to the sliders. I can only flip back to before the entire operation, but this makes it very hard to learn what each control does especially when some operations take a minute or more.

If you learn best by tweaking (you're not the only one!) instead of by workflow video or through prior processing experience, etc., then try processing a small section/crop of your data. Previews will render *much* faster, allowing you to gauge the effect of the different parameters better.

I'm going to stack my next data set and try the app on that file. I'm all but convinced this is a must have app, i just feel like I'm trying to fly a 777 with no clue what each control does.

Hang in there Mark and do feel free to ask about anything here on the forums. About 50% of StarTools' development time goes into *reducing* the amount of parameters by making things smarter or more intuitive, so at least the amount of parameters to tweak and discover is lower than in other software...