StarTools 1.9 Beta

General discussion about StarTools.
Mike in Rancho
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Re: StarTools 1.9 Beta

Post by Mike in Rancho »

Thanks for the effort, Ivo. :thumbsup:

Composite is interesting. Depending on how that Synth L is blended together, and depending on what the star is emitting, I suppose that mashup could potentially cause PSF pertubations in any multi-channel data.

A side by side of the same screen and settings between 557 and 558 does seem to show the new version tames down those severe black eye rings on certain of the stars. :bow-yellow:

They are still there though, but at least more within the deringing parameters capability to handle. Linearity may still need to be dropped to a very low setting.

The other matters I think still exist in testing, so I'm not sure we're totally there yet. :(

I used Stefan's M8 data, since that seems to present the major snags in one nice package, and ran it through 558, 536, 557, and then 558 again. Same steps each time. Composed as bicolor OSC, crop two mouse wheel clicks on each side, bin 50, wipe default, optidev no-ROI IFD-5.0, contrast default, and then into SVD.

I am still seeing a big dichotomy between stars in the SVD selection mask, and those without. This is also (barelyt) noticeable in synthetic deconvolution too, if one doesn't start selecting samples right away and lets it finish. Non-SVD-mask stars may end up with black eyes, albeit lesser now in 558, while SVD-mask stars don't seem to. They also act differently to the deringing controls. :think:

Turning dering fuzz completely OFF seems to reveal some shapes that may be a deringing support mask. On a wild guess, maybe something like that is created by taking the existing SVD mask and adding to it via Mask procedures. But, there could be some flaws in that creation - again, guessing? Some of the deringing shapes (no fuzz) start out very blocky or even square, like what can happen with circles in Mask after using grow, though they still seem to need at least another hit of grow, and more round would be good too. Heavily lowering linearity can help round those off a bit. I also noticed several "misses" in those deringing square blocks in Stefan's data near the core -- one was displaced upward from the star's profile itself (leaving the bottom half still ringed, even after fuzz was added back in), and as a second I found some bright non-star nebulosity was included, causing structural detail be fuzzed out, after SVD had so nicely revealed it.

All of that strikes me as very similar to an AutoMask issue, with the starfishy SVD selection mask stars doing the best, and the non-starfishy added masking not so much. That may also explain why similar stars end up with different results, including tiny stars against a nebulous field that don't get any deringing effect at all.

Of course, I have no idea if I am in the ballpark or just completely loony. :lol:
decay
Posts: 497
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:28 pm
Location: Germany, NRW

Re: StarTools 1.9 Beta

Post by decay »

I'm not sure if it's of any use, but just wanted to report that the latest beta crashed in NR module. This time it doesn't seem to be memory related.

Best regards, Dietmar.

2023-07-09 14_59_11-Ereignisanzeige.jpg
2023-07-09 14_59_11-Ereignisanzeige.jpg (84.51 KiB) Viewed 108409 times
decay
Posts: 497
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:28 pm
Location: Germany, NRW

Re: StarTools 1.9 Beta

Post by decay »

Ok, I’ve tried, but I cannot reproduce that crash. Maybe just some kind of temporary refusal of work of my notebook ... ;-) And sorry for that screen-filling screenshot. Not very discreet ...

So now for something hopefully more constructive. I can confirm some of the points Mike reported. Last night I took some own data of M8 (haha, but that’s another story) and so I had a go with this very limited dataset. As far as I can say, ringing seems to be a bit more under control as with the previous beta version. But Stefan’s famous bright star embedded in the nebula still shows strong ringing with my dataset also. As Mike described, the only way to get rid of this is to reduce Linearity to very low values, e.g. 2 or even 1. The other two sliders (Focus / Fuzz) have almost no impact in my case. And I have the impression that (de-)ringing still depends on the processing steps done before, maybe OptiDev ...

But what I would like to mention: SV Decon now shows a fantastic performance. Some of the alpha versions were almost unusable for me, but now selecting the sampling stars is a joy and the whole processing time is no problem at all any more. :thumbsup: :bow-yellow:

Best regards, Dietmar.
Mike in Rancho
Posts: 1166
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:05 pm
Location: Alta Loma, CA

Re: StarTools 1.9 Beta

Post by Mike in Rancho »

decay wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 5:30 pm And I have the impression that (de-)ringing still depends on the processing steps done before, maybe OptiDev ...

Best regards, Dietmar.
Yeah Dietmar, I think that SVD itself is pretty spot on now, but that an underlying automask issue may be the remaining wrench in the machinery. And OptiDev (and other) choices may affect the size of such mask outlining. At least according to my guessing and unscientific testing. :lol:

Personally, I think I'd like custom control of any deringing support mask, even if that goes in the opposite direction of more automation.

The sampling for SVD itself I'm good with. In most cases the sample and blue box sizing seems appropriate now, so I trust SVD to know better than I do what will work for deconvolution. And if there are a few flaws in the starfishy automasking, we don't select those and SVD is just looking for PSF's anyway, so it doesn't really cause any problem.

Until one gets to deringing. So, if we could get our hands on a separate mask to touch up - because with the wide range of possible datasets, no automasking will ever get it all perfect. We wouldn't affect the apod mask that SVD uses, though our starting point may be based on that. Then, we could add missed stars, correct half-masked stars, and erase full errors that shouldn't have been masked, like bright nebulosity. :D

I can't remember what version I was using, but a few weeks ago on a glob I noticed that some near-core stars were clarifying as expected in SVD, while others remained fuzzy. I think I may understand that now.
Stefan B
Posts: 475
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:59 pm

Re: StarTools 1.9 Beta

Post by Stefan B »

Thanks for looking into that, Ivo. I'll have a look at the update as soon as I can.

Regards
Stefan
Stefan B
Posts: 475
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:59 pm

Re: StarTools 1.9 Beta

Post by Stefan B »

I had a try with the new beta and can confirm that *the star* can be handled better now. Deringing focus had no effect in my case, but reducing fuzz and linearity to single digit numbers did the job. Thanks :thumbsup:

Regards
Stefan
decay
Posts: 497
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Location: Germany, NRW

Re: StarTools 1.9 Beta

Post by decay »

Mike in Rancho wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 6:50 pm but that an underlying automask issue may be the remaining wrench in the machinery. And OptiDev (and other) choices may affect the size of such mask outlining.
Yes, maybe that's the case, Mike. I don't know. :think: Probably only Ivo can tell.
Mike in Rancho wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 6:50 pm The sampling for SVD itself I'm good with. In most cases the sample and blue box sizing seems appropriate now, so I trust SVD to know better than I do what will work for deconvolution.
Yep, I agree.
Mike in Rancho wrote: Sun Jul 09, 2023 6:50 pm Personally, I think I'd like custom control of any deringing support mask, even if that goes in the opposite direction of more automation.
Again I agree and yes, maybe that could be helpful. Regarding 'opposite direction of more automation' there are some other points in ST, that come to my mind. Just for example there must be some kind of automated decision what is considered to be background and what brighness levels are object or highligts. This influences a lot of processing in following up modules, for example Color (Dark Saturation) or HDR. Of course, this automated decision works damn good ( :bow-yellow: ) but I had some rare cases where I doubted. Maybe some kind of 'expert modus' would be helpful? So maximum automation as normal case, but the possibility to override for special cases. Hehe I'm sure Ivo just waits for some other weird ideas :lol:

Very best regards, Dietmar.
dx_ron
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:55 pm

Re: StarTools 1.9 Beta

Post by dx_ron »

I am getting much better svd handling of bright stars in a duoband image with 558 (though I've not tried a really bright star).

With 57 Cyg in the Pelican (mag 4.8) it is easy to get a decent deconvolution when the file is opened with Compose:
558_compose.jpg
558_compose.jpg (17.59 KiB) Viewed 108226 times
The same star requires a lot more massaging if the file is opened with Open.

But I'm still having quite a lot of trouble with bright stars in an OSC image. The example star is HD 150679, mag 7.25 near M13.

With the default svd settings:

svd_after_defaults.jpg
svd_after_defaults.jpg (14.07 KiB) Viewed 108226 times
With 558, the Linearity slider no longer seems to have any effect on these large/bright stars - has anyone else noticed that?
Mike in Rancho
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Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:05 pm
Location: Alta Loma, CA

Re: StarTools 1.9 Beta

Post by Mike in Rancho »

Hey Ron,

I'd have to try to dig up some duo data to try open vs compose for those. Are you otherwise processing identically? Thinking on it, I would figure it to be the same as far as the Synth L goes, only becoming different when you get to Color due to G and B being identical twins. But the Synth L should be (2xG)(B) for those channels either way, and if the right options are picked in compose it shouldn't get double weighting for OSC. :think:

On M13, is that the same file as last month, all-reg-tweaks?

What was your log on the way to SVD?

I loaded it up and I think I did pretty much what we were experimenting with back then - 71%, Uncal1, ROI with IFD6 (I also dropped some shadow linearity), and then a mild HDR.

I am not seeing the same result that you are in your posted crop, other than the tiny star in the outer diffraction that does not dering, which issue has been otherwise raised already (but can be fixed in Shrink later).

I wonder if your pre-SVD processing is giving you a different apod mask and different deringing support on the non-sample-able stars? What do you see if you turn deringing fuzz completely off?

On the one I have open right now, with fuzz off I can see a large structure that fully covers the bulk of the star. This is what then gets fuzzed by way of the two right-side sliders. Linearity does not seem to be an issue, at least on my workflow here, and so the linearity slider makes no changes as it is not needed here. For me, dering fuzz of 25% seems the best compromise across all the sizes of stars and this bigger blue one as well.

Not saying I'm completely happy with it. I actually can't get a right blend of this fuzzing that doesn't leave a enlarged bright square in the center of the star rather than a pinpointed core. :confusion-shrug:

I'm also troubled by the glob itself, which isn't looking good to me in before/after SVD, and I think is what I recalled from before. M13 seems to be a patchwork of deconvoluting and fuzzing regions, and does not look correct.

Here's what I was doing to your file pre-SVD, plus the samples.

Code: Select all

-----------------------------------------------------------
StarTools 1.9.558beta
Sat Jul 15 22:19:13 2023
-----------------------------------------------------------
File loaded [D:\ASTRO\POST-PROCESSING\DxRon M13 Testing\M13_L3-all_reg-tweaks_fwhm-78_363x60s_rgb.fit].
Image size is 6222 x 4166
--- 
Type of Data: Linear and was Bayered, but not whitebalanced
--- RoI Optimized Develop
Parameter [Ignore Fine Detail] set to [Off]
Parameter [Outside RoI Influence] set to [15 %]
Parameter [RoI X1] set to [0 px]
Parameter [RoI Y1] set to [0 px]
Parameter [RoI X2] set to [6222 px (-0)]
Parameter [RoI Y2] set to [4166 px (-0)]
Parameter [Detector Gamma] set to [1.00]
Parameter [Shadow Linearity] set to [50 %]
--- Crop
Parameter [X1] set to [124 px]
Parameter [Y1] set to [82 px]
Parameter [X2] set to [6098 px (-124)]
Parameter [Y2] set to [4084 px (-82)]
Image size is 5974 x 4002
--- Bin
Parameter [Mode] set to [Fractional]
Parameter [Scale] set to [Scale 70.71% / +1.00 bits / +0.41x SNR Improvement]
Image size is 4224 x 2829
--- Wipe
Parameter [Synthetic Dark/Bias] set to [Adaptive Multi-axis Conservative]
Parameter [Gradient Edge Behavior] set to [Grow Opposite Axis]
Parameter [Synthetic Flats] set to [Vignetting]
Parameter [Sampling Precision] set to [256 x 256 px]
Parameter [Dark Anomaly Filter] set to [4 px]
Parameter [Gradient Falloff] set to [75 %]
Parameter [Synth. Bias Edge Area] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Gradient Aggressiveness] set to [50 %]
Parameter [Correlation Filtering] set to [Off]
Redoing stretch of linear data
--- RoI Optimized Develop
Parameter [Ignore Fine Detail] set to [6.0 px]
Parameter [Outside RoI Influence] set to [15 %]
Parameter [RoI X1] set to [1816 px]
Parameter [RoI Y1] set to [1187 px]
Parameter [RoI X2] set to [2446 px (-1778)]
Parameter [RoI Y2] set to [1752 px (-1077)]
Parameter [Detector Gamma] set to [1.00]
Parameter [Shadow Linearity] set to [25 %]
--- HDR
Parameter [Signal Flow] set to [Tracked]
Parameter [Quality] set to [Low]
Parameter [Gamma Shadows (Lift)] set to [1.00]
Parameter [Gamma Highlights (Tame)] set to [1.05]
Parameter [Gamma Smoothen] set to [40.0 px]
Parameter [Context Size] set to [25x25 pixels (0.59% image W, 0.88% image H)]
Parameter [Shadows Detail Boost] set to [30 %]
Parameter [Highlights Detail Boost] set to [0 %]

PSF samples used (6 PSF sample locations, BASE64 encoded)

VFMAAAYAgBANC9sECApfDqAGFAFJB00CfgTvCeUDjAvIAg==
dx_ron
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:55 pm

Re: StarTools 1.9 Beta

Post by dx_ron »

Interesting. Thanks for looking at it again. I am away for about 10 days. I'll start back into it when I get back.
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