Monkey Business ... NB with RGB stars

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decay
Posts: 510
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:28 pm
Location: Germany, NRW

Monkey Business ... NB with RGB stars

Post by decay »

Hi all,

here is my try on the Monkey Head Nebula. My intention was to use the NB-Accent module, like Ron did, but I was not able to gather enough broadband data. So I ended up layering in RGB stars only.

Image

I tried a whole bunch of red / teal renditions, but in the end I decided to use this Hubble palette style - like colouring, which came out quite nicely in my eyes. I dialed in quite some OIII in order to underline the spatial distribution of the two gases. This time I made use of most of the enhancing modules: Contrast, HDR and Sharp, which brought out the dust lanes nicely. I hope it's not overcooked. SV-Decon worked well on the stars as well as on the the structure of the nebula. Super Structure was used to saturate the colours only, not for noise reduction.

The broadband data suffers from high clouds and haze, but tried to do a broadband rendition using this limited data, too:

Image

Don't know what's wrong with me, but I kind of like this image. This was a very basic workflow: No Contrast, no Shrink, no HDR, no SuperStructure, only SV-Decon. I like the colour of the nebula; probably the 'natural' colour of the Balmer series? I like the different sized stars, underlining the nice star clusters. And I like the already showing up reflection parts, which Ron already mentioned. I will for sure revisit this object some day and try to get more broadband data of better quality.

Edit: AstroBin link for technical details: https://www.astrobin.com/qfcp3v/

Best regards, Dietmar.
Stefan B
Posts: 490
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:59 pm

Re: Monkey Business ... NB with RGB stars

Post by Stefan B »

Hi Dietmar,

both renditions look very nice. Lots of details in both of them, even in the broadband only version with its minimal processing. I am really wondering if NBAccent wouldn't be worth a shot. Did you try?

You could maybe get the best of both worlds. The punch and detail of NB and coloring of broadband.

Regards
Stefan
decay
Posts: 510
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:28 pm
Location: Germany, NRW

Re: Monkey Business ... NB with RGB stars

Post by decay »

Thank you, Stefan :)
Stefan B wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 2:08 pm I am really wondering if NBAccent wouldn't be worth a shot. Did you try?
Really? I wouldn't have considered that. No, I haven't tried, but I will have a look now. :)

Best regards, Dietmar.
Stefan B
Posts: 490
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:59 pm

Re: Monkey Business ... NB with RGB stars

Post by Stefan B »

This image

https://app.astrobin.com/i/w3po4i

also contained only about two hours of broadband with a DSLR (a bit more NB though than your monkey head) and the NBAccent rendition turned out MUCH better than either broadband or Duo NB only. I am pretty confident in this regard...

Regards
Stefan
decay
Posts: 510
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:28 pm
Location: Germany, NRW

Re: Monkey Business ... NB with RGB stars

Post by decay »

Stefan B wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 6:36 pm the NBAccent rendition turned out MUCH better than either broadband or Duo NB only. I am pretty confident in this regard...
Thank you, Stefan. I had a quick go and the result has quite some punch, but is very blurry. The details have to come from the broadband image, right? I'm not sure how to process this faint nothing of nothingness. Strong noise comes up immediately when I try to bring out some detail. :think:

Best regards, Dietmar.
Stefan B
Posts: 490
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:59 pm

Re: Monkey Business ... NB with RGB stars

Post by Stefan B »

I am always doing it the wrong way, i.e. after the final stretch I go straight to color and from there to NBAccent. Afterwards I go through the modules like Contrast etc. So some detail should be from NB. But maybe I just misjudged the datasets. If you want to share the stacks I give it a try.

Regards
Stefan
decay
Posts: 510
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:28 pm
Location: Germany, NRW

Re: Monkey Business ... NB with RGB stars

Post by decay »

Stefan B wrote: Tue Feb 11, 2025 6:37 pm If you want to share the stacks I give it a try.
PM sent magically behind the scenes ;-)

Thanks, Stefan!
Stefan B
Posts: 490
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:59 pm

Re: Monkey Business ... NB with RGB stars

Post by Stefan B »

Hi Dietmar,

here's what I came up with:

MonkeyHeadNBA.jpg
MonkeyHeadNBA.jpg (536.45 KiB) Viewed 7795 times

As I said after the final stretch I went straight to Color and then to NBAccent. Afterwards I visited the common modules and used mostly defaults. I think it contains a bit more details than the broadband only version while matching the color of it.

What do you think?

Regards
Stefan

PS. And here's the log (masks deleted):

Code: Select all

File loaded [C:\Users\stefa\Pictures\ST Forum\Monkey Head Dietmar\ngc-2145-l.reg.fits].
Image size is 5953 x 3931
--- 
Type of Data: Linear and was Bayered, but not whitebalanced
--- Bin
Parameter [Mode] set to [Integer Mean]
Parameter [Scale] set to [Scale 50.00% / +2.00 bits / +1.00x SNR Improvement]
Image size is 2976 x 1965
File loaded \ngc-2175-1.reg.fits].
Image size is 5953 x 3931
--- 
Type of Data: Linear and was Bayered, but not whitebalanced
--- Bin
Parameter [Mode] set to [Integer Mean]
Parameter [Scale] set to [Scale 50.00% / +2.00 bits / +1.00x SNR Improvement]
Image size is 2976 x 1965
Loading red channel data
File loaded in LRGB module [\ngc-2145-l.reg.fits].
Loading NB accent data
File loaded in LRGB module [\ngc-2175-nb.reg.fits].
Loading green channel data
File loaded in LRGB module [\ngc-2145-l.reg.fits].
Loading blue channel data
File loaded in LRGB module [\ngc-2145-l.reg.fits].
--- Compose
Parameter [Luminance, Color] set to [L + Synthetic L From RGB, RGB]
Parameter [Color Ch. Interpolation] set to [On]
Parameter [NB Accents Type] set to [H-alpha/S-II+O-III/H-beta from Duo/Tri/Quadband filter]
Parameter [Spectrum and Filters] set to [Full Visual Spectrum (OSC with UV/IR cut or LRGB filter set)]
Parameter [Scene] set to [Widefield Nebula]
Parameter [Total Exposure] set to [Not Set]
Parameter [Blue Total Exposure] set to [1h58m (118m) (7080s)]
Parameter [Green Total Exposure] set to [1h58m (118m) (7080s)]
Parameter [Red Total Exposure] set to [1h58m (118m) (7080s)]
Image size is 5953 x 3931
Type of Data: Linear, was not Bayered, or was Bayered + white balanced
--- Bin
Parameter [Mode] set to [Integer Mean]
Parameter [Scale] set to [Scale 50.00% / +2.00 bits / +1.00x SNR Improvement]
Image size is 2976 x 1965
--- RoI Optimized Develop
Parameter [Brightness Tranches] set to [12-bit]
Parameter [Ignore Fine Detail] set to [Off]
Parameter [Outside RoI Influence] set to [15 %]
Parameter [RoI X1] set to [0 px]
Parameter [RoI Y1] set to [0 px]
Parameter [RoI X2] set to [2976 px (-0)]
Parameter [RoI Y2] set to [1965 px (-0)]
Parameter [Detector Gamma] set to [1.00]
Parameter [Shadow Linearity] set to [50 %]
--- Crop
Parameter [X1] set to [177 px]
Parameter [Y1] set to [41 px]
Parameter [X2] set to [2842 px (-134)]
Parameter [Y2] set to [1891 px (-74)]
Image size is 2665 x 1850
--- Wipe
Parameter [Synthetic Dark/Bias] set to [Off]
Parameter [Gradient Edge Behavior] set to [Absorb 50%]
Parameter [Synthetic Flats] set to [Off]
Parameter [Sampling Precision] set to [256 x 256 px]
Parameter [Dark Anomaly Filter] set to [11 px]
Parameter [Gradient Falloff] set to [0 %]
Parameter [Synth. Bias Edge Area] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Gradient Aggressiveness] set to [84 %]
Parameter [Correlation Filtering] set to [0.5 px]
Redoing stretch of linear data
--- RoI Optimized Develop
Parameter [Brightness Tranches] set to [12-bit]
Parameter [Ignore Fine Detail] set to [4.3 px]
Parameter [Outside RoI Influence] set to [39 %]
Parameter [RoI X1] set to [2366 px]
Parameter [RoI Y1] set to [188 px]
Parameter [RoI X2] set to [941 px (-1724)]
Parameter [RoI Y2] set to [1419 px (-431)]
Parameter [Detector Gamma] set to [1.00]
Parameter [Shadow Linearity] set to [50 %]
--- Color
Parameter [Bias Slider Mode] set to [Sliders Reduce Color Bias]
Parameter [Style] set to [Artistic, Detail Aware]
Parameter [LRGB Emulation] set to [Straight CIELab Luminance Retention]
Parameter [Matrix] set to [Identity (OFF)]
Parameter [Dark Saturation] set to [2.7]
Parameter [Bright Saturation] set to [5.5]
Parameter [Saturation Amount] set to [200 %]
Parameter [Blue Reduce Bias] set to [1.00]
Parameter [Green Reduce Bias] set to [1.48]
Parameter [Red Reduce Bias] set to [1.21]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [1.0 px]
Parameter [Cap Green] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Highlight Repair] set to [Off]
--- VISUAL SPECTRUM NARROWBAND ACCENT COMPOSITING
Parameter [Ignore Fine Detail] set to [Off]
Parameter [Outside RoI Influence] set to [15 %]
Parameter [RoI X1] set to [2366 px]
Parameter [RoI Y1] set to [188 px]
Parameter [RoI X2] set to [941 px (-1724)]
Parameter [RoI Y2] set to [1419 px (-431)]
Parameter [Threshold] set to [0 %]
Parameter [Shadow Linearity] set to [50 %]
--- VISUAL SPECTRUM NARROWBAND ACCENT COMPOSITING
Parameter [Ignore Fine Detail] set to [4.0 px]
Parameter [Outside RoI Influence] set to [15 %]
Parameter [RoI X1] set to [2366 px]
Parameter [RoI Y1] set to [188 px]
Parameter [RoI X2] set to [941 px (-1724)]
Parameter [RoI Y2] set to [1419 px (-431)]
Parameter [Threshold] set to [0 %]
Parameter [Shadow Linearity] set to [50 %]
--- VISUAL SPECTRUM NARROWBAND ACCENT COMPOSITING
Parameter [Response Simulation] set to [H-II/Balmer Series (Purple) + H-beta/O-III (Cyan)]
Parameter [Color Modify Input] set to [Luminance]
Parameter [UNKNOWN] set to [Luminance]
Parameter [Detail Size] set to [0 px]
Parameter [Brightness Correlation] set to [Off]
Parameter [Gamma] set to [1.00]
Parameter [Strength] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Band Balance] set to [60% / 40%]
--- Contrast
Parameter [Expose Dark Areas] set to [Yes]
Parameter [Brightness Retention] set to [Off]
Parameter [Precision] set to [256 x 256 px]
Parameter [Shadow Detail Size] set to [10 px]
Parameter [Locality] set to [50 %]
Parameter [Shadow Dyn Range Alloc] set to [50 %]
--- HDR
Parameter [Signal Flow] set to [Tracked]
Parameter [Quality] set to [Medium]
Parameter [Gamma Shadows (Lift)] set to [1.00]
Parameter [Gamma Highlights (Tame)] set to [1.25]
Parameter [Gamma Smoothen] set to [20.0 px]
Parameter [Context Size] set to [50x50 pixels (1.88% image W, 2.70% image H)]
Parameter [Shadows Detail Boost] set to [30 %]
Parameter [Highlights Detail Boost] set to [30 %]
--- SNR-aware Wavelet Sharpening
Parameter [Structure Size] set to [Large]
Mask used (BASE64 PNG encoded)



--- SNR-aware Wavelet Sharpening
Parameter [Protection] set to [Shadows/Highlights Softclip]
Parameter [Scale 1] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Scale 2] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Scale 3] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Scale 4] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Scale 5] set to [100 %]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [4 px]
Parameter [Amount] set to [300 %]
Parameter [High SNR Size Bias] set to [85 %]
Parameter [Low SNR Size Bias] set to [0 %]
Parameter [Dark/Light Enhance] set to [50% / 50%]
Mask used (BASE64 PNG encoded)



--- Spatially Variant PSF Deconvolution
Parameter [Synthetic PSF Model] set to [Circle of Confusion (Optics Only)]
Parameter [Synthetic PSF Radius] set to [1.5 px]
Parameter [Synthetic Iterations] set to [Off]
Parameter [Spatial Error] set to [1.00]
Parameter [Deringing Focus] set to [64 %]
Parameter [Dyn. Range Extension] set to [1.00]
Parameter [Deringing Fuzz] set to [37 %]
Parameter [Sampled Iterations] set to [10x]
Parameter [Linearity] set to [100 %]
Mask used (BASE64 PNG encoded)



--- Shrink
Parameter [Mode] set to [Tighten]
Parameter [Halo Extend] set to [4 px]
Parameter [Iterations] set to [15]
Parameter [Regularization] set to [0.85]
Parameter [Color Taming] set to [9 px]
Parameter [De-ringing] set to [Off]
Parameter [Un-glow Strength] set to [Off]
Parameter [Un-glow Kernel] set to [Off]
--- Super Structure
Parameter [Detail Preservation] set to [Linear Brightness Mask Darken]
Parameter [Compositing Algorithm] set to [Multiply Gamma Correct]
Parameter [Brightness, Color] set to [Process Both]
Parameter [Brightness Retention] set to [Local Median]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [1.0 px]
Parameter [Airy Disk Radius] set to [50 %]
Parameter [Gamma] set to [0.75]
Parameter [Detail Preservation Radius] set to [20.0 px]
Parameter [Saturation] set to [50 %]
Parameter [Strength] set to [100 %]
--- Super Structure
Parameter [Detail Preservation] set to [Linear Brightness Mask]
Parameter [Compositing Algorithm] set to [Screen]
Parameter [Brightness, Color] set to [Process Color]
Parameter [Brightness Retention] set to [Off]
Parameter [Mask Fuzz] set to [1.0 px]
Parameter [Airy Disk Radius] set to [50 %]
Parameter [Gamma] set to [0.50]
Parameter [Detail Preservation Radius] set to [20.0 px]
Parameter [Saturation] set to [142 %]
Parameter [Strength] set to [100 %]
--- Unified De-Noise
Parameter [Grain Size] set to [12.0 px]
Parameter [Walking Noise Size] set to [1.0 px]
Parameter [Walking Noise Angle] set to [0]
--- Unified De-Noise
Parameter [Scale 1] set to [99 %]
Parameter [Scale 2] set to [95 %]
Parameter [Scale 3] set to [95 %]
Parameter [Scale 4] set to [95 %]
Parameter [Scale 5] set to [50 %]
Parameter [Equalized Grain] set to [27 %]
Parameter [Scale Correlation] set to [50 %]
Parameter [Color Detail Loss] set to [50 %]
Parameter [Brightness Detail Loss] set to [50 %]
Parameter [Grain Dispersion] set to [12.0 px]
File saved
decay
Posts: 510
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:28 pm
Location: Germany, NRW

Re: Monkey Business ... NB with RGB stars

Post by decay »

Thanks a lot, Stefan. That's a lot better than my first attempt. :thumbsup: :) There's indeed much more detail than I brought out by using the 'traditional' NBA processing workflow.

Doing it 'the wrong way' seems to be the way to go. I wonder if this could be a problem for the tracking feature of StarTools. :think: But at least, there doesn't seem to be any visible negative impact.

This is a nice result considering that most of the time haze and high clouds reduced the quality. I usually acquire NB data first and broadband later, if possible. Maybe I should consider doing it the other way round and make sure to get enough broadband data first.

:thumbsup:

Best regards, Dietmar.
Stefan B
Posts: 490
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:59 pm

Re: Monkey Business ... NB with RGB stars

Post by Stefan B »

decay wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2025 7:00 pm Doing it 'the wrong way' seems to be the way to go.
At work they always say that doing it wrong is what I do best... :roll:
decay wrote: Wed Feb 12, 2025 7:00 pm I wonder if this could be a problem for the tracking feature of StarTools. :think: But at least, there doesn't seem to be any visible negative impact.
If I remember correctly, Ivo once said that NBAccent messes with the stars' PSF so you shouldn't do SVDecon afterwards. On the other hand NBAccent often reverses the effects of SVDecon and Shrink if done in the appropriate order. Sometimes it looked as if it never happened so I had to use Shrink again. Which collides with the Do It Once And Do It Right approach I prefer.

The common way of using NBAccent for nebulae results in an extremely soft look in my eyes. Your broadband base has to be very detailed while your NB data only adds background nebulosity. If you want your detail coming from NB while maintaining the natural color the intended way to go is with NB for luminance and broadband for chrominance. I almost never got satisfying results with this approach since broadband color doesn't match NB luminance; i.e., there's faint signal in the NB while there's no color in broadband, resulting in the faint parts being grey. With NBAccent this faint parts get colored to your liking with Balmer vs Red or Cyan vs Teal.

Maybe it would be best to do a NBAccent version for color, an NB version for luminance and layer them accordingly. This was basically suggested by Carles if I remember correctly and discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3003. I wasn't super convinced but maybe this workflow can be put to good use.

Regards
Stefan
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