Messier 106 et al.
Re: Messier 106 et al.
@decay
Dietmar,
Well, I’ll give a best I can answer to this.
What I don’t want however is to start a StarTools vs other software strong debate, or to in any way
Insult or abuse, or offend StarTools. I bought StarTools as soon as I saw it available in 2013, and have used it in some part in literally every image I have processed since. And also, I know absolutely from a scientific aspect, I am not retaining integrity of data in the way the author of Startools intended by the way that I personally process my images. i accept this fully. It’s just, in my eyes, aesthetically, I prefer the finished result I achieve by the composite method I use (which does change from image to image depending on subject and quality of data), and also I already have to use other software to stack the images into a final integration, and already owned those other pieces of software.
I also use a starless processing method on nebula later in processing, and find this much easier to do in Photoshop using plugins.
So firstly in my explanation, comes the usual initial processes on an image; gradient removal, colour calibration, and the initial stretch from linear data.
I own and use Astro Pixel Processor for calibration and stacking. It can save out in 32bit floating point FITS linear, straight into StarTools if desired, but APP has a very effective gradient removal, and star colour calibration tool built in that I can choose to use (and do) instead of the Startools Wipe and then later colour modules (I however, do often use colour module in STools later sometimes as well.)
There is also in APP a very good initial stretch, which personally I find gives a smoother , better tonal, a seemingly larger dynamic range, result than either of the StarTools stretch modules. May be subjective, and I KNOW this compromises the data integrity arguments of StarTools use, but there it is, I just like the stretch result better from APP.
So then I load into Startools as a nonlinear SRGB file, and do a Bin, usually 60% or 70% bin (for my imaging setup), followed by contrast, HDR, Sharp, Svdecon ( which cannot be matched in results by any other software).
Then sometimes colour module if tweaks to colour balance are needed (basically balancing the histogram), then entropy, and finally super structure (usually saturation, maybe brightness, and a little dimsmall- 20-40%)
Then I save out and pull into photoshop and remove the stars using StarXterminator plugin, and follow with a hefty noise reduction routine using NoiseXterminator ( I know its AI, and I have not got Startools tracking any more), and after maybe a few tweaks using ‘camera raw filter’ replace the extracted stars with ones extracted from only a lightly stretched and star colour calibrated but otherwise un processed starfield from the initial APP save out. i do this because I just prefer the star look using this method.
Its then usually saved out as tiff and pulled back into StarTools for a light flux effect and thats it.
For publishing I then bin again (a copy) in Startools to 2048x ???? Which I find is a good image size for ipads, web use etc.
So, in summary I use other software with StarTools because
a) I prefer the APP initial stretch.
B) I TOTALLY accept that my scientific data has been compromised in the pursuit of an artistic image.
C) Overall I prefer the stars extracted from a lightly stretched and well saturated image plugged into a starless well processed and noise reduced object image, so I ignore what stars look like in Startools, push the object processing hard, then remove and replace the stars in Photoshop.
This, after processing using this type of method gives to my eye better results than purely using StarTools modules alone.
That is why I don’t post much, I feel a little guilty, and I don’t want to offend StarTools purists, believe me I LOVE STARTOOLS, and i use it in ALL my images! (Just not as the brilliant Startools author intends).
I add some recent pics, but had trouble with posting so low quality and not HDR looking.
Andy.
Dietmar,
Well, I’ll give a best I can answer to this.
What I don’t want however is to start a StarTools vs other software strong debate, or to in any way
Insult or abuse, or offend StarTools. I bought StarTools as soon as I saw it available in 2013, and have used it in some part in literally every image I have processed since. And also, I know absolutely from a scientific aspect, I am not retaining integrity of data in the way the author of Startools intended by the way that I personally process my images. i accept this fully. It’s just, in my eyes, aesthetically, I prefer the finished result I achieve by the composite method I use (which does change from image to image depending on subject and quality of data), and also I already have to use other software to stack the images into a final integration, and already owned those other pieces of software.
I also use a starless processing method on nebula later in processing, and find this much easier to do in Photoshop using plugins.
So firstly in my explanation, comes the usual initial processes on an image; gradient removal, colour calibration, and the initial stretch from linear data.
I own and use Astro Pixel Processor for calibration and stacking. It can save out in 32bit floating point FITS linear, straight into StarTools if desired, but APP has a very effective gradient removal, and star colour calibration tool built in that I can choose to use (and do) instead of the Startools Wipe and then later colour modules (I however, do often use colour module in STools later sometimes as well.)
There is also in APP a very good initial stretch, which personally I find gives a smoother , better tonal, a seemingly larger dynamic range, result than either of the StarTools stretch modules. May be subjective, and I KNOW this compromises the data integrity arguments of StarTools use, but there it is, I just like the stretch result better from APP.
So then I load into Startools as a nonlinear SRGB file, and do a Bin, usually 60% or 70% bin (for my imaging setup), followed by contrast, HDR, Sharp, Svdecon ( which cannot be matched in results by any other software).
Then sometimes colour module if tweaks to colour balance are needed (basically balancing the histogram), then entropy, and finally super structure (usually saturation, maybe brightness, and a little dimsmall- 20-40%)
Then I save out and pull into photoshop and remove the stars using StarXterminator plugin, and follow with a hefty noise reduction routine using NoiseXterminator ( I know its AI, and I have not got Startools tracking any more), and after maybe a few tweaks using ‘camera raw filter’ replace the extracted stars with ones extracted from only a lightly stretched and star colour calibrated but otherwise un processed starfield from the initial APP save out. i do this because I just prefer the star look using this method.
Its then usually saved out as tiff and pulled back into StarTools for a light flux effect and thats it.
For publishing I then bin again (a copy) in Startools to 2048x ???? Which I find is a good image size for ipads, web use etc.
So, in summary I use other software with StarTools because
a) I prefer the APP initial stretch.
B) I TOTALLY accept that my scientific data has been compromised in the pursuit of an artistic image.
C) Overall I prefer the stars extracted from a lightly stretched and well saturated image plugged into a starless well processed and noise reduced object image, so I ignore what stars look like in Startools, push the object processing hard, then remove and replace the stars in Photoshop.
This, after processing using this type of method gives to my eye better results than purely using StarTools modules alone.
That is why I don’t post much, I feel a little guilty, and I don’t want to offend StarTools purists, believe me I LOVE STARTOOLS, and i use it in ALL my images! (Just not as the brilliant Startools author intends).
I add some recent pics, but had trouble with posting so low quality and not HDR looking.
Andy.
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Last edited by AndyBooth on Mon Mar 18, 2024 8:56 am, edited 7 times in total.
Re: Messier 106 et al.
Hi @AndyBooth,
thank you very much for your detailed and comprehensive answer.
First of all, let me say, that it was not my intention to start any kind of fundamental debate. I just would like to understand your workflow and your motivation. I too love StarTools, and/but I think it must be fine and helpful to discuss compounded and/or alternative workflows. And I'm sure we all can learn and discover new aspects of our hobby. From my point of view there's absolutely no reason to feel guilty about anything.
I will read your answer carefully and reply in detail. But I will need some time to do so, and I hope that's OK for you.
Thanks again, Dietmar.
thank you very much for your detailed and comprehensive answer.
First of all, let me say, that it was not my intention to start any kind of fundamental debate. I just would like to understand your workflow and your motivation. I too love StarTools, and/but I think it must be fine and helpful to discuss compounded and/or alternative workflows. And I'm sure we all can learn and discover new aspects of our hobby. From my point of view there's absolutely no reason to feel guilty about anything.
I will read your answer carefully and reply in detail. But I will need some time to do so, and I hope that's OK for you.
Thanks again, Dietmar.
Re: Messier 106 et al.
No problem my friend.
We are all trying to get the best from the data we obtain with great struggle, and everyone’s satisfaction of an image is unique to themselves.
Sharing gives appreciation of others views!
We are all trying to get the best from the data we obtain with great struggle, and everyone’s satisfaction of an image is unique to themselves.
Sharing gives appreciation of others views!
Re: Messier 106 et al.
Fantastic images and nicely processed, Andy (@AndyBooth ) ! Are they online somewhere? If I saw correctly, you once had an AstroBin account, but you deleted it?
Thanks again for sharing your workflow. I heard about APP being a powerful stacker, but I didn't know of it's other capabilities. Gradient removal using WIPE works most times painlessly for me, though occasionally it can can be tricky to get it right. Setting the initial stretch using AutoDev is not as intuitive as one would think. Sometimes it takes quite a number of attempts to get it right. Of course using a ROI is much simpler than dragging and fiddling curves and sliders, but the weighting of the contained brightness levels is sometimes not easy to adjust. Interesting that you like the stretch result better than from ST. I would have thought it's just a matter of how difficult it is to reach the desired result. Maybe I will get the trial version of APP and try it out. I wonder if it is possible to reconstruct brightness curves by comparing input and output images. To see the difference between ST and APP stretches ... maybe later ...
I never used entropy and flux modules, maybe I should give them a try.
SuperStructure was my very best friend when processing my first noisy and terrible datasets. (And it is still my friend.) But I'm still thinking about it's astro to astro art continuum rating ... Maybe I will drop a post in Mike's thread. He's so silent
I once tried starless processing and accidentally wiped the central star of M27 out of existence. That was an very embarrassing moment and my first and last test of starless processing. But I'm not sure. Shrinking stars doesn't seem to be very scientific as well. Probably the next module to discuss in Mike's thread. I don't like the use of AI either, but in the end it's only some (H)euristic (AL)gorithm (once again ) to identify stars. Why not? ST's star mask does just the same, but by using a direct mathematical approach. (BTW: I even don't like the term AI - for me all this models are still just neuronal networks. But that's another story.)
I really don't think that anyone feels offended. And I don't think that this is any kind of abuse of ST. ST offers the possibility to process data in a scientific way. That's great and fine for anyone who want to do so. But it offers the possibility to do a more artistic approach for processing as well. The preferred approach is unique to everyone himself, as you wrote. And for me that's perfectly fine. As far as I am concerned I would be glad to see more posts from you in future.
Best regards, Dietmar.
Thanks again for sharing your workflow. I heard about APP being a powerful stacker, but I didn't know of it's other capabilities. Gradient removal using WIPE works most times painlessly for me, though occasionally it can can be tricky to get it right. Setting the initial stretch using AutoDev is not as intuitive as one would think. Sometimes it takes quite a number of attempts to get it right. Of course using a ROI is much simpler than dragging and fiddling curves and sliders, but the weighting of the contained brightness levels is sometimes not easy to adjust. Interesting that you like the stretch result better than from ST. I would have thought it's just a matter of how difficult it is to reach the desired result. Maybe I will get the trial version of APP and try it out. I wonder if it is possible to reconstruct brightness curves by comparing input and output images. To see the difference between ST and APP stretches ... maybe later ...
I never used entropy and flux modules, maybe I should give them a try.
SuperStructure was my very best friend when processing my first noisy and terrible datasets. (And it is still my friend.) But I'm still thinking about it's astro to astro art continuum rating ... Maybe I will drop a post in Mike's thread. He's so silent
I once tried starless processing and accidentally wiped the central star of M27 out of existence. That was an very embarrassing moment and my first and last test of starless processing. But I'm not sure. Shrinking stars doesn't seem to be very scientific as well. Probably the next module to discuss in Mike's thread. I don't like the use of AI either, but in the end it's only some (H)euristic (AL)gorithm (once again ) to identify stars. Why not? ST's star mask does just the same, but by using a direct mathematical approach. (BTW: I even don't like the term AI - for me all this models are still just neuronal networks. But that's another story.)
I really don't think that anyone feels offended. And I don't think that this is any kind of abuse of ST. ST offers the possibility to process data in a scientific way. That's great and fine for anyone who want to do so. But it offers the possibility to do a more artistic approach for processing as well. The preferred approach is unique to everyone himself, as you wrote. And for me that's perfectly fine. As far as I am concerned I would be glad to see more posts from you in future.
Best regards, Dietmar.
Re: Messier 106 et al.
Hi Dietmar,
Although I’m not familiar with this region being in the southern hemisphere , that’s a tremendous image I must say , well done !!
I’ve persevered with 1.8 SV Decon for over a year and have reluctantly switched back to 1.7
I just can’t avoid having my stars cores ( big and small ) ending up looking like super white discs. Whilst the Deconvolution in SV Decon works extremely well ( deblur ) in comparison to 1.8 synthetic or 1.7 PSF , the stars end up looking artificial. Maybe I should try 1.9 and see if I can make the stars cores look more natural. In your image the larger star cores show this white disc but the smaller ones look more natural.
In regards to Startools in general, I was of the understanding that one shouldn’t switch midway through processing in ST and use other software as ST is actively tracking the data from start to finish until saved. I only thought one could tweak ST with other software once completed in ST as ST would be compromised and not provide optimal results.
Refer to Ivo’s excellent video from the UK 2 years ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Luu2-B ... xzIGVwIDQx
Anyway lovely Galaxy image and hope you get more clear skies leading towards your summer
By the way I’ll swap your B5 skies for my B8 skies any day , B8 is hard work and broadband with my 2600MM is virtually impossible unless you want to process hundreds and hundreds of 30 sec subs , I don’t have consistent clear skies or storage space to efficiently capture galaxies under my B8 , I’ll leave that to my rural site where my Dome is located under B3. ( refer to my latest Centaurus A Galaxy image )
Clear Skies
Martin
Although I’m not familiar with this region being in the southern hemisphere , that’s a tremendous image I must say , well done !!
I’ve persevered with 1.8 SV Decon for over a year and have reluctantly switched back to 1.7
I just can’t avoid having my stars cores ( big and small ) ending up looking like super white discs. Whilst the Deconvolution in SV Decon works extremely well ( deblur ) in comparison to 1.8 synthetic or 1.7 PSF , the stars end up looking artificial. Maybe I should try 1.9 and see if I can make the stars cores look more natural. In your image the larger star cores show this white disc but the smaller ones look more natural.
In regards to Startools in general, I was of the understanding that one shouldn’t switch midway through processing in ST and use other software as ST is actively tracking the data from start to finish until saved. I only thought one could tweak ST with other software once completed in ST as ST would be compromised and not provide optimal results.
Refer to Ivo’s excellent video from the UK 2 years ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Luu2-B ... xzIGVwIDQx
Anyway lovely Galaxy image and hope you get more clear skies leading towards your summer
By the way I’ll swap your B5 skies for my B8 skies any day , B8 is hard work and broadband with my 2600MM is virtually impossible unless you want to process hundreds and hundreds of 30 sec subs , I don’t have consistent clear skies or storage space to efficiently capture galaxies under my B8 , I’ll leave that to my rural site where my Dome is located under B3. ( refer to my latest Centaurus A Galaxy image )
Clear Skies
Martin
Re: Messier 106 et al.
"Shouldn't switch midway" only applies if you want to maintain the integrity of the noise tracking. Andy has already said that he is willing to give that up in pursuit of making the images he wants to make, and that's a perfectly valid choice.Startrek wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 10:13 pm I was of the understanding that one shouldn’t switch midway through processing in ST and use other software as ST is actively tracking the data from start to finish until saved. I only thought one could tweak ST with other software once completed in ST as ST would be compromised and not provide optimal results.
Re: Messier 106 et al.
@decay
Thanks Dietmar,
Yes i used to have an astrobin account many years ago, but never kept it up.
I dont have a library as such online, but I post the most recent pics I have done here.
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100088635940203
Yes, either starting an image in STools which is not linear, or jumping out to other software and back, utterly and completely
Nullifies the tracking element of Startools, so you lose the Startools ‘scientific’ integrity of the image.
But in the end, its the result that matters to you that is important. As long as your not publicising falsely the software or processing used, then its up to you how you process your pictures. You have bought the software, use it how you want to please yourself.
I have been a practical astronomer since my early teens, and I’m 63 now.
I image sun,moon,planets and deepsky, for the love and joy of it.
We are truly in a golden age as regards hardware and software, and I am so grateful that people have the smarts to make and code these things.
My own experience is that it is far easier to acquire the data than process it !
Regarding APP, I bought it for its calibration and stacking, its been the absolute best in my experience over a few years now, but it comes with quite a few other tools as well, which do solely work in the linear mode, in 32bit fits. Its only a specific exporting stretch module which then makes an image non linear, and you can do that or not.
From my side, I have not done a Full Startools work through using only Startools, and with APP compliant stacking settings for a long time, so on my next object stack, I will do this and try and master some of the Startools modules better, I may ask for help!
Anyway, my intention was not to derail this thread about M106, if you have any more questions please tag me in a new thread.
Best regards,
Andy.
Thanks Dietmar,
Yes i used to have an astrobin account many years ago, but never kept it up.
I dont have a library as such online, but I post the most recent pics I have done here.
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100088635940203
Yes, either starting an image in STools which is not linear, or jumping out to other software and back, utterly and completely
Nullifies the tracking element of Startools, so you lose the Startools ‘scientific’ integrity of the image.
But in the end, its the result that matters to you that is important. As long as your not publicising falsely the software or processing used, then its up to you how you process your pictures. You have bought the software, use it how you want to please yourself.
I have been a practical astronomer since my early teens, and I’m 63 now.
I image sun,moon,planets and deepsky, for the love and joy of it.
We are truly in a golden age as regards hardware and software, and I am so grateful that people have the smarts to make and code these things.
My own experience is that it is far easier to acquire the data than process it !
Regarding APP, I bought it for its calibration and stacking, its been the absolute best in my experience over a few years now, but it comes with quite a few other tools as well, which do solely work in the linear mode, in 32bit fits. Its only a specific exporting stretch module which then makes an image non linear, and you can do that or not.
From my side, I have not done a Full Startools work through using only Startools, and with APP compliant stacking settings for a long time, so on my next object stack, I will do this and try and master some of the Startools modules better, I may ask for help!
Anyway, my intention was not to derail this thread about M106, if you have any more questions please tag me in a new thread.
Best regards,
Andy.
Last edited by AndyBooth on Tue Mar 19, 2024 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Messier 106 et al.
dx_ron wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 10:27 pm"Shouldn't switch midway" only applies if you want to maintain the integrity of the noise tracking. Andy has already said that he is willing to give that up in pursuit of making the images he wants to make, and that's a perfectly valid choice.Startrek wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 10:13 pm I was of the understanding that one shouldn’t switch midway through processing in ST and use other software as ST is actively tracking the data from start to finish until saved. I only thought one could tweak ST with other software once completed in ST as ST would be compromised and not provide optimal results.
Re: Messier 106 et al.
"Shouldn't switch midway" only applies if you want to maintain the integrity of the noise tracking. Andy has already said that he is willing to give that up in pursuit of making the images he wants to make, and that's a perfectly valid choice.Startrek wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 12:12 am [quote=dx_ron post_id=15501 time=<a href="tel:1710800878">1710800878</a> user_id=1598]
[quote=Startrek post_id=15500 time=<a href="tel:1710799986">1710799986</a> user_id=1349]
I was of the understanding that one shouldn’t switch midway through processing in ST and use other software as ST is actively tracking the data from start to finish until saved. I only thought one could tweak ST with other software once completed in ST as ST would be compromised and not provide optimal results.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Thanks for the technical clarificationStartrek wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 12:12 amdx_ron wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 10:27 pm"Shouldn't switch midway" only applies if you want to maintain the integrity of the noise tracking. Andy has already said that he is willing to give that up in pursuit of making the images he wants to make, and that's a perfectly valid choice.Startrek wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 10:13 pm I was of the understanding that one shouldn’t switch midway through processing in ST and use other software as ST is actively tracking the data from start to finish until saved. I only thought one could tweak ST with other software once completed in ST as ST would be compromised and not provide optimal results.
My query wasn’t intended to criticise someone’s use of different software processing , yes totally agree it’s a matter of individual choice. As I said I was of the understanding that one shouldn’t switch based on previous information I’ve read on ST , CN and other forums.
Query now answered , thanks
Apologies Dietmar if I’ve hijacked this thread in any way
Clear Skies
Martin
Re: Messier 106 et al.
Very nice image, Dietmar! I especially like the color balance you achieved And NGC 4217 also looks great. Impressive for not even four hours. I once tried M 106 and aquired more than five hours but struggled. Bright moon might have had something to do with that.
@AndyBooth Really nice M 106 images! Independent of the software used for processing
With regard to Astrobin and the like system...yes, it certainly has its downsides with the 'exchange' of likes and follows. You'll notice when you receive a like and look at the images of the corresponding photographer and leave a sincere like and ... receive dozens of random likes back. I am pretty sure in the hope of receiving dozens of likes again. Pretty strange.
But I have to admit that it was pretty important for me, too, to see how many likes an image gets. Meanwhile I am pretty laid back in that regard
What I really like about Astrobin is that I have all the information on my images at hand in a pretty clear layout. And it's easy to look back and see how image quality improved. I noticed that it's much more rewarding to compare my new images to my old ones instead of comparing my new ones to the image of the day aquired in Chile
Regards
Stefan
@AndyBooth Really nice M 106 images! Independent of the software used for processing
With regard to Astrobin and the like system...yes, it certainly has its downsides with the 'exchange' of likes and follows. You'll notice when you receive a like and look at the images of the corresponding photographer and leave a sincere like and ... receive dozens of random likes back. I am pretty sure in the hope of receiving dozens of likes again. Pretty strange.
But I have to admit that it was pretty important for me, too, to see how many likes an image gets. Meanwhile I am pretty laid back in that regard
What I really like about Astrobin is that I have all the information on my images at hand in a pretty clear layout. And it's easy to look back and see how image quality improved. I noticed that it's much more rewarding to compare my new images to my old ones instead of comparing my new ones to the image of the day aquired in Chile
Regards
Stefan